Current military electronic maintenance methods on HMMWVs?

[LCA078]

For those still in turning wrenches or at least knowledgeable on the subject, I'm curious how the military is using electronic data to maintain it's HMMWV fleet. I'm referring to how they actually getting data from the vehicle and not the behind the scenes data analysis done echelons above the line units once the data is entered. Back in my day, we filled out paper log books with miles, hours, fuel/oil added, and that was about it. Any faults were recorded on another piece of paper in the green binder. But I've heard operators and/or mechanics now take toughbook computers to the vehicle instead of paper log books. Was curious if this was just another way to manually log the info or if they're connecting the vehicle to the computer. Since I own a M1097A2, I don't see what an computer can 'suck out' of it unless they connected to the TCM and even then that's pretty slim pickings if no faults are there. Are newer trucks equipped with modern data logging systems that are being used?

 

[Retiredwarhorses]

Toughbooks have been out since the late 90’s for aircraft, the motor pools still use 2404’s, there is nothing to “suck” out as these are not ODB capable, perhaps on a JLTV, but not on these legacy platforms.

 

[KKroger]

Probably just an electronic logbook for the vehicles like a work order traveller. As RWH mentions the truck doesn't do much communicating. there are connections with test points but it is test light and meter stuff. not data.

 

[LCA078]

That's what I figured. I remember when laptops came out for aviation. It took a while but pretty soon each aircraft had a dedicated laptop to enter in all the info. We still had paper forms (2408's, I had to google it cuz it's been so long) that we filled out but the mechanics then had to enter the same info into the laptop. A bit redundant but batteries never died on a paper log book.

The reason I'm asking about the 'plugging into' a hmmwv is I heard a talk about how the Army is moving towards full communication capability between all equipment and maintenance. The statement was made that within a few years, every major piece of Army equipment will be connected to a computer for optimization of supply, repairs, maintenance, etc. Faults would be automatically recorded and sent back so parts and workflows could be optimized in order to reduce time to get the equipment back online and in the fight. Specifically the speaker said ground vehicles are the major first step....but as we know that may be a long leap of faith. My guess is the speaker (a senior Army officer) was explaining a great concept but not really discussing actual plans for implementation. Or maybe they're focusing on newer equipment while legacy items like hmmwvs and lmtv/fmtvs fade away.

Either way, it would be nice to have an OBD-II style readout for performance and faults on a hmmwv. Do the newer versions have this capability?

 

[KKroger]

Sounds like an absolutely horrible idea for tactical vehicles... easy to kill/disable... but the abrams is pretty electronic... all MIJI hardened and "EMP" proof... the new NO Armor IFV is pretty electronic. all the commo gear some of the HMMWV have it supposedly hardened but I don't know we never actually tested it, but the radios can work as a wheel chalk while on the air.

 

[LCA078]

Sounds like an absolutely horrible idea for tactical vehicles... easy to kill/disable... but the abrams is pretty electronic... all MIJI hardened and "EMP" proof... the new NO Armor IFV is pretty electronic. all the commo gear some of the HMMWV have it supposedly hardened but I don't know we never actually tested it, but the radios can work as a wheel chalk while on the air.

It is and it isn't a horrible idea. All depends on how it's implemented. If the data and control systems are essentially on the same network like we have on our civilian vehicles, then yeah, it's probably pretty bad because the control systems are more than likely vulnerable when you access any sensor data. But if the sensor data is just that and can be pulled without any connection or being able to control the vehicle, then maybe it's a good idea. Predictive maintenance isn't perfect but it does help forecast parts and downtime which is fairly critical for 'at the edge' missions.

For instance, if you had a vehicle that started to run hotter than normal and there was a clear trend to see nominal temps creep up after every mission, then you could predict when there would be a catastrophic failure. Today, Warfighters just get in a vehicle and drive it until it stops. I'm sure RWH has more than once wished a vehicle was turned in earlier for an easy repair instead of later for a major repair.

 

[Guyfang]

Today, Warfighters just get in a vehicle and drive it until it stops.

Do you think it was any different 52 years ago? Not even.

 

[LCA078]

Do you think it was any different 52 years ago? Not even.

I agree, it was the exact same 52 years ago. And that's completely the problem that I think should be discussed. Back then, there was no economical solution to add crap loads of sensors to a vehicle and then have a computer monitor it real time to advise the operator/maintainer of issues that was helpful. Today, it's the opposite as there are more sensors and computational power available to help prevent catastrophic issues. If there was a "call maintenance now" light on a vehicle that lit up from the temp heating trend, for example, then hopefully maintenance would be alerted and blow out a radiator or replace a bad thermostat before the heads warped. Today, GI doesn't see/care/understand what the little analog needle is really saying because he's looking at his phone more than his gauge cluster. He needs "assistance" in monitoring and predicting. And then the next GI gets this vehicle for the next mission and he has no history of that vehicle...so as far as he knows, this truck ALWAYS runs this hot to no need worry. And no, I'm not talking about the little idiot 'wrench' light that everyone ignores because an oil change is due....

 

[KKroger]

I started to reply, and the post ended up being too long because it derailed into story telling...
MOST times when vehicles deployed they tended to have to stay where they went and many times there was no maintenance available, We refused to leave our vehicle behind. Also we had one of TWO green vehicles in the entire country, every other vehicle was white. Ours and a Brit Rover used by their small team were the only green vehicles. At any rate the STAR in charge of the mission overall had an armored HMMWV, ours was the only other HMMWV in country at that time. we had no issues with our truck but the Star's Armored truck was problematic, JCS did a visit and brought two Armored Burbs, one old Square Body with no computer and one early 90s Computer controlled one. the newest vehicle there... had problems. the older one was fine, the Navy flew in a mechanic to deal with the Star's Vehicle and the JCS folks left their hard cars behind because the computer controlled one couldn't get to the airport to fly out. Forward deployed areas have trouble dealing with Fancy.... SEAL Team Two the Star's Security detail had some other vehicles for the life of me I cannot remember what they were??? Definitely not NOT local vehicles, At any rate the Navy Mechanic hated the 90s Burb with a passion. He wanted to keep our HMMWV even though it was not a hard car. but when our job was done we took our truck with us. WE never had an issue with vehicles forward deployed. Ours were meticulously maintained, we would get a message from Vehicle Operations to bring this truck or that truck over to them to have things done. if we had issues we put them in the logbook and they would take care of it when we brought it in. an electronic log would be as good but I don't think computer controls are good for actual deployed use. We were generally far out in front of any main force elements. there was no MX truck that we could stop and wait for to fix our truck. We carried 50 Gallons of Diesel and 25 gallons of Water (Potable) A few spare parts (Belts, hoses and a tool kit) Oil and Trans Fluid under the rear seats. MOST of us had a pretty good handle on mechanics and electrics...

 

[Guyfang]

MOST times when vehicles deployed they tended to have to stay where they went and many times there was no maintenance available

This is, has, and will always be a problem. Deployment or training. Its all about saving money, and yes, time. The time I can understand, sometimes. But the saving money, not at all. If a unit deploys, they should take their equipment. If a unit rotates into a major training center, they should take their equipment. There is no better way to judge a units ability to perform its mission.

Case in point. I helped train the forth Patriot Missile Battalion in 1985-86. And deployed with them, to Germany. When we took over the training equipment in Ft. Bliss, nothing, I mean nothing, worked. No Patriot launcher could run longer that 1-2 hours without losing power. Each launcher had its own on board 15 KW gen set, (24 generators total in the Battalion). Each Battery had an EPP2 Power plant, (2 turbine generators per EPP, 6 total in the Battalion) to power the rest of the system. The vehicles were just as bad. Almost all the maintenance people were straight out of AIT. How do you conduct training? Sixty days of intense, 12-16 hour days by a group of 6 generator personnel, (One SUPER NCO and 5 AIT grads) and 5 Turbine mechanics, (All straight out of AIT) and one CWO.

The run it until it breaks mentality, is a bigger problem then young soldiers with cell phones. Meaningful training needs to happen. And its not happening. Ownership of the equipment needs to be real. Assigned driver, drives the truck. A kick ass Motor Maintenance Program, with real trained mechanics, NCO's and CWO's. And that is the real problem. The knowledge base is gone. You can not train people, what you don't know. And last, working in your assigned MOS. That was the biggest complaint of mechanics I worked with, when they came back from deployment, or were in Garrison here in Germany. "I almost never got to work in my MOS."

 

[KKroger]

It is systemic, and having computer controls and such won't help at all.
when you arrive somewhere and have to spend two months getting half the stuff working again.
Computers and documenting trends won't help. doing the actual PMs instead of pencil whipping them will. But again MONEY.

 

[LCA078]

I hear ya and have 'been there done that' with other people's shite they left in theater. I don't think we'll have another 20 year war in the near future and SBE (stay behind equipment) will be a thing of the past. If anything, the next time will be like Desert Storm with a massive "all in" at once and everyone will have to bring their stuff and most of it won't come back.

But what I'm referring to the daily use and training that we'll do during peacetime ops until the flag goes up again. The hmmwv is turning 45 years old pretty soon and it could benefit from a few 'smart' things tossed onto it, IMHO. When you consider that the 'tip o the spear' folks will generally be using something other than a hmmwv, the hmmwv will still play a formidable role in basic transport for all the support and non-kinetic units. Same goes for the LMTV/FMTV but at least it does have a type of onboard data and fault collection for analysis.

 

[KKroger]

With the HMMWV being phased out, the newer vehicles will be smarter... not necessarily better. I maintain that there is no need if you do the maintenance even with the bells and whistles it won't mean much if it doesn't get maintained.