802a #2 Gotta be easier than the first...

[Toolslinger]

Jan 31...

Temps really won't relent this year.

I've now got a second propane heater by repairing the original. 105,000 btu if they're running wide open. Much better...
I tried to work on it yesterday, but I didn't get the heat running earlier enough, plus my soul just wasn't feeling it... So I grabbed all the fuel line, the tank, whatever else was involved, and brought it in to the house overnight to warm up.

This morning, I installed the new tank outlet. Nothing like working in the middle of the living room with diesel components, and white teflon pipe dope...

Headed to the garage, and fired up the heat.

Took the tank out to the barn, and hung it from a hoist over a bucket with the fitting down, and threw probably a quart of 2 cycle fuel in it to check for leaks. I moved on to other tasks while that was under way.

After about an hour, all was well, so I dumped the fuel, and headed down to the garage. Inside it was probably just above freezing. Wouldn't think that would be pleasant, but this year, it's fine.

With the fitting, I had to open up the notch where it comes through the enclosure to clear the nut. I added a strip of rubber between the tank, and the enclosure to hold it back a little since there's a washer on the well nut that I didn't want to contact the enclosure, and I couldn't remove quite enough of the flange to clear it otherwise.

Things seemed to be going nicely...

Got the radiator end put back in place, but it just wasn't sitting nicely. I fought with that for way too long before realizing that I had caught the rubber strip between the two flanges... So off with that assembly again, cut the strip down so it can't interfere and back on. I'm getting pretty good with that assembly now after having done it too often.

Started installing the new fuel return line. Apparently I didn't get enough by like a foot... So I just did all the little pieces, and left the long run back to the tank for when I get some more line. I also replaced the fuel filter, and the water separator since I've got it all torn apart now. Pleasantly, while the separator was tight, King Kong had not installed it, and it came off without getting mangled.

All the wiring is back in place. All the supply side lines are back in place. Radiator is hooked back in, though not filled. By then, it was 5:15, and the garage was up to 62 degrees, and I was down to just a sweatshirt. So much easier to work with the enclosure bolts and nuts without a heavy coat on.

I threw a quart of diesel in it... We'll see if it is actually sealed up tomorrow morning, or if I have a haz-mat cleanup...

 

[Toolslinger]

No leaking overnight!

Can't progress on the fuel system, so I guess it was time to clean up some more electrical, and some panels...

First thing I did was install the fuel fill neck, and cap. That went fine. Involved trimming some crazy long hose clamps that the unit came with. I really didn't need an extra 5" tail on both of them. I'm happy the tank is capped with more than just a paper towel now.

Next up was checking all the wiring for any signs of chafing. Nothing more than a little fuzz on a couple lines. I added split coolant hose, and zip ties on a couple areas that looked close. While doing all that inspection, and zip tying, I found a number of missing bolts, and missing cable guides. Bolts are easy, and I had all the cable guides from the salvage 813a. I also hit all the other terminal strips with deoxit, and made sure they're all snug. I had to replace the screws holding the S1 as there were only 2, they're the wrong head, and they were too long to tighten the switch down all the way without hitting the switch body.

After sorting out all that, I put the panel back on the left side of the control box. I imagine that will be it for panels until I finish, and run it some. There's no point going further if I find I need to rip in to it again.

Tomorrow I think it will be time to clean up the general mess. Get the tools back to some kind of order rather than scattered all over the trailer. Also need to order some replacement filters for the ones I consumed.

 

[Toolslinger]

Back at it today...
Put in a new tube to run the return line through below the side door. Can't say what the original is/was, it was MIA. I used polycarbonate. 3/8" ID worked great. By the time I got the place warmish, and that tube installed, the mail came with the return line. So, I got that installed. No real issue, but that tube was cold and stiff. Real bear to put on the fitting at the tank.

I added a mechanical oil pressure gauge since I have absolutely no idea what it is/was running at last time. The electronic gauge is supposedly broken. Not knowing if it is the gauge, or the sender, throwing a mechanical in there is the safe choice.

With that done, I put the air cleaner, and muffler back on next. I had put the batteries on charge last night in hopes of getting to turn it over this weekend, so with nothing else left, I threw them in. Just to be sure I did that right, I bumped the crank switch, and she spun over, so progress...

Lined up the switches, and rolled S1 to prime/run/aux, and nothing... Checked the E-Stop, that's ok. Both pumps should be ticking. Tried prime/rum, and same. No life.
Ran 24v straight to the main pump, and it ticks, so something is unhappy. Spent some time trying to read numbers on wires, and they've been obliterated in that area of the machine. That's less than optimal. While I was doing some very basic looking about, I smelled electrical... That's not good. Knocked the switch back to off, and hit the E-Stop. Noticed a wisp of smoke coming from the glow plug wiring... That is not right obviously.

Apparently I need to print out the schematics big again, and start chasing the spaghetti. I kinda wonder if the PO swapped the S1 out of this machine for what's in it now. Perhaps it had the more durable flavor and he wanted it for his keeper. That would explain the incorrect bolts holding it in, and it being loose. That's where I'm going to start at any rate, I believe the wire labels are ok in the control box...

Apparently it don't gotta be easier than the first 802a...
The arctic is blowing in again tonight and tomorrow, so I'll get back to it on Monday for a little while.

 

[Ray70]

When you switched S1 to Prime/Run did the gages move at all, or show any other signs of power getting to the control panel?

 

[Toolslinger]

I did not see gauge movement. I did check the night lights, and the two indicator lights, and they worked, so there's some power at the panel, but I don't recall enough about the wiring in there to know if they're even relevant to the question. I did not check the fault lights.

 

[kloppk]

I'd suggest turning on the panel lights and then checking for 24 volts at one of them while you put S1 in Prime/Run.
If it maintains about 24 volts there with S1 in Prime/Run then start checking for power to S1 2,4,6 & 8. If present on those terminals then check for 24 volts at S1-3. S1-3 is "Run" power to the fuel pump and the rest of the cube.

 

[Guyfang]

Have you replaced, or removed the S1 of late? What type S1 do you have?

 

[Ray70]

I'd suggest turning on the panel lights and then checking for 24 volts at one of them while you put S1 in Prime/Run.
If it maintains about 24 volts there with S1 in Prime/Run then start checking for power to S1 2,4,6 & 8. If present on those terminals then check for 24 volts at S1-3. S1-3 is "Run" power to the fuel pump and the rest of the cube.

S1-2,4,6 and 8 "Should" be jumped together internally. If you are missing 24V on 3 out of 4 of those points, that indicates someone swapped the switch with the wrong ( but similar ) PN. You can easily add jumpers, if that turns out to be your problem.

 

[Guyfang]

First lets see what kind of S1 it is. If its the Mark 1 and Mark 2 switch, the jumpers may have fallen out.

 

[Toolslinger]

I haven't disconnected the S1, I just replaced the bolts holding in on the panel. It's either a 1 or 2. I want to say it's the square version, but blue to be sure. Checking for the jumpers is certainly on the list.

Planning to print the larger wire layouts tomorrow morning when I'm working. I should get over to the unit during the day to start chasing things.

 

[Toolslinger]

This is what I've got. There is 1 external jumper, and 2,4,6, and 8 are all common. So seemingly different switch, but it should work. I found the diode was installed backwards, so put that right. Chased the wires back to the main fuel pump, and they were swapped. That might have been me since I did cut those to free the harness, but I only did one at a time, so I don't know how I could have messed it up, but I can't rule it out. I did also feed 24v straight to the aux pump, and got ticking.

Clearly there has been some ham handedness going on here...

Going to check the relay for the preheat after lunch to make sure that isn't shorted. I have to go over the schematic, but the diode on S1 might have been part of this issue...

Should be more tolerable in the garage a little later as the heat builds.

 

[Guyfang]

Mark 2 switch.

 

[Toolslinger]

So... They had swapped two wires on S1 (3 and 7) in addition to screwing up the diode polarity. Other than replacing a couple zip ties, that's taken care of, and things appear to be functioning correctly as far as I've gone.

I'm done for the day, and likely not much more in the next couple weeks, but I'm happy it's progressing.

Who has the secret to bleeding the injectors? With the muffler, and air filter housing in place they're almost impossible to reach with my regular crows foot wrench. Thinking a flex head crows foot possibly? Am I just trying too hard and I should just pull the muffler and filter again? (that would seem a bit silly, but it would work)

 

[Guyfang]

You bleed them by starting the set. Crank the motor. The Injectors are self bleeding.

 

[Toolslinger]

Excellent. I'm a fan of simple.

 

[Toolslinger]

Good weather, and I have 4 days to myself...
Got at it this morning. Got 90% of the coolant I drained back in. I'll chase that if things work...

Got a couple tractors going so I could get at the one I use to tow these things around. I was not going to try starting it inside.

Pulled it out. Batteries were topped off. Took me a bit to get the fuel system bled. Had to put the chargers on.
I thought I was good, so tried starting it. It was not happy. I did eventually get it to catch with just a wiff of ether, but only on one cylinder it seemed. The fan side cylinder was firing. I bled the other side again, and eventually it smoothed out. It shook so bad on the one cylinder, that it ripped the wires out of my oil pressure switch, and the sender. Glad I put a mechanical on. OP is good. I have to read again on those wires. I knew the gage was supposedly bad, but I don't recall if it should run with the switch disconnected...

It makes power. It was extremely low naturally until the second cylinder lit off. Eventually it got up to 120 and just over 60hz with a little tweak.
Hit the contactor, and I have voltage at the lugs.
Put a load on it, and it fell right on it's face. It wouldn't come back up, so I shut down. Restarted fine. Put a much smaller load on the convenience outlet, and also knocked it right out around 450 watts, so something is really unhappy.

TM suggests checking fuel supply lines, filters, etc, as well as the muffler. All the filters were changed, so they should be an issue. Would a weak fuel pump potentially cause that? It's got the square Facet pumps that I have read are problematic. Will have to do some reading on how to test them...

I put the chargers back on over lunch. Batts might be fine, I saw the alternator was putting a charge back in them, but better to have them topped when I go back out. I will likely start it and just let it run for a while. I'll see if I have a 2-300 watt load I can throw on there so it's at least trying a little...

 

[Ray70]

Weak fuel pumps will cause that problem, but typically not at such a low current output.
The cube Facet pump needs to go away regardless, but to kill you engine at only 450W the pump must be barely working at all!
I'd probably replace the pump and see what happens. If you still have the same issue the next place to look is probably the governor rack.
When it fires up, does it start up quick with a very brief puff of black smoke, then immediately settle back to 60Hz?
Or does it chug a bit, slowly building up speed to get to 60Hz?
If the governor is working it should rip right up a bit past 60Hz ( due to being at wide open throttle ) then immediately pull itself back down to 60.

 

[rickf]

With the pump running and the set not running do you have return flow into the tank? If yes repeat with it running, still flowing? If yes have someone put a load on it while you watch for return flow. If it dies out but still flowing the pump is working well enough.
This is the pump I use on all my vehicles for replacement. I have a couple that are 40 years old and still purring away.

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[Toolslinger]

Round two today never made it to 60hz. Started better than the first round, but real slow, and kept picking up slowly, just never got enough RPMs to get close to 60.
I'll see if I can see return flow tomorrow with a mirror down the fill. Only have a couple gallons in there, so I should have enough room to view.
It is of course possible that I didn't get the governor right when I was in there. Hopefully that isn't the case, and it's something external and simple like a pump...
Just heard from my uncle... they're buying another car, so this is going to be my last winter with a nice garage space to work in... I can't tell you how disappointing that is. Garage is on my long term plan, but I'm way deep in another expensive home project first... Such is life...

 

[Digger556]

So... They had swapped two wires on S1 (3 and 7) in addition to screwing up the diode polarity. Other than replacing a couple zip ties, that's taken care of, and things appear to be functioning correctly as far as I've gone.

I'm done for the day, and likely not much more in the next couple weeks, but I'm happy it's progressing.

Who has the secret to bleeding the injectors? With the muffler, and air filter housing in place they're almost impossible to reach with my regular crows foot wrench. Thinking a flex head crows foot possibly? Am I just trying too hard and I should just pull the muffler and filter again? (that would seem a bit silly, but it would work)

I believe I used an open end wrench to open the injector lines. (at an angle)

I'm late to the party, but have you tried just cranking it? If the air in the lines is not excessive, it may clear itself.