802a #2 Gotta be easier than the first...

[rickf]

You can always remove the return line from the fitting and move the line over to the tank fill hole and secure it there so you can see what is coming out of it.

 

[Ray70]

Since you mentioned it is slow starting, I still think you should replace the electric pump and then diagnose the fuel system.
Make sure you have good flow and the 802 also needs a couple PSI to get the metering pumps working. They won't work if the electric pump is not providing a little bit of pressure.
You can also have someone crank it over while you watch the fuel lever at the solenoid.
The solenoid should pull in and the lever arm should immediately snap to the right. If it moves slowly or appears to stick at all your rack or a pimp lever may have an issue.
You can also remove the fuel stop solenoid and manually rotate the throttle lever you can tell if the rack is moving freely or not, however if this is your first go at it you may not understand what it is supposed to feel like without a good gen for reference.
With the FSS removed the lever arm should freely spring clockwise to the full open open position, with the tip pointing to around the 1:00-2:00 position.
If not, your rack may be sticking. if you rotate it counterclockwise you should feel some spring resistance and you will also feel a small "click" as well. If you let it go it should spring all the way to the right again.

 

[rickf]

You have to watch those pimp levers, They can be shady characters.

 

[Toolslinger]

Pulled it outside again this morning. Batteries topped overnight. Crank, and nothing.
FSS is working.
The pump control lever moves where it should, and feel like my working 802, and the spare engine I've got.
Routed the return line to the tank, and it does flow fuel. It also flows fuel while cranking. Didn't start, so can't say there.
Played the crank, charge, crank charge game for a while. No start. Not even a puff of smoke.

Got frustrated.
Pulled the muffler, and air filter housing.
Cracked the fan side injector's nut.
Crank. Nothing. No diesel there. Tried the control side, and also nothing.
Never going to run that way.

So I bled the fan side back at the pump. I get fuel at the lower nut, but then nothing out the top.
The only thing I can think is the arm on the pump jumped out of the fuel rail.
That was the stated issue by the seller. (I don't trust that guy, but that was the story at any rate.) I thought I had that taken care of. I wasn't able to make them jump out when I had it torn down. I'm guessing it may just move so fast from the FSS that the inertia carries the arm just that much more, and out it comes.

I do have a couple new 24v pumps I bought as spares for the working 802. I would really prefer to keep them for that purpose. I've got the transfer pump from the 813 I gutted, so that's also an option (that one is one of the round flavors). The Facet is moving fuel, and will push it enough to bleed the bottom fitting on a pump. Since the IP doesn't put anything out the top with nothing connected, I'm really more prone to think I missed something on the rail, but it will be a whole lot easier to plumb in a different pump temporarily to try it.

Have good weather tomorrow as well, so I will see what I can come up with then.

 

[Guyfang]

I don't feel like reading this whole thread, its longer than my Autobahn 9. So, will ask:

Has it ever run right in front of you?

Have you taken the IP's out, disassembled them and cleaned them?

Have you loosened the mounting bolts for the IP's and then articulated the linkage? You can feel the IP move when its loose and the linkage is moved back and forth.

You can see/hear fuel going back into the tank when you crank the engine. You get fuel to the input side of the IP. You get nothing on the output side of the IP. I fail to believe that all the IP's have jumped the rail. So what else is left? The IP.

 

[Toolslinger]

I don't feel like reading this whole thread, its longer than my Autobahn 9. So, will ask:

Has it ever run right in front of you?
Nope. There was a video of it running, but I'm just as sure the guy may have faked it due to things I've found so far that would mean it didn't run.

Have you taken the IP's out, disassembled them and cleaned them?
Nope. I imagine that's in my future. Will have to do some reading on that process.

Have you loosened the mounting bolts for the IP's and then articulated the linkage? You can feel the IP move when its loose and the linkage is moved back and forth.
No. I hadn't found that tip. I will try that.

You can see/hear fuel going back into the tank when you crank the engine. You get fuel to the input side of the IP. You get nothing on the output side of the IP. I fail to believe that all the IP's have jumped the rail. So what else is left? The IP.
Yes, no, maybe... It ran yesterday, though badly. So there was fuel there 24 hours ago. That's not to say it was right, but it wasn't dry.

See above in red.
Geesh Guy, you want people to read the TM's, but can't sit through 4 pages of angst? It'll cure insomnia for sure.

 

[Ray70]

Oh jeeze.... I get it! My fat finger spelling mistakes!

 

[Guyfang]

It was a long, long, long day. It ended with moving furniture. Forgive me.

 

[Ray70]

So for the record, metering "Pimp levers" , known to others as Pump levers.... don't just pop out of the rack, the rack has to be damaged, high / limit screws set incorrectly, or installed wrong.
Look at the screw that the vertical fuel lever hits when it's in the Off position, FSS extended. Does that screw look to have ever been messed with?
If so, the pump levers can come out if the low limit was messed with and allowed to go too low!

 

[Toolslinger]

Sadly, yes, the limit screws had been messed with in the past. I did my best to set them correctly by the TM when I was inside, and verified that the rail moves smoothly. I may not have gotten them perfect, so that's on the list to check. Once I get the set running right, they will get a dose of thread locker. My safety wire skills are about zero, but I should probably try that too.

Just found a doc posted by Guy on how to set them with the gear end cover in place. That's welcome, because I thought I'd be ripping the end of the unit again today just to verify.

However, I'll be pulling the IP's out for a soak and cleaning today I believe. The pimp arms seemed to move smoothly, but I suppose there's nothing saying that anything is moving inside to actually pump if they're stuck compressed.

 

[2Pbfeet]

It was a long, long, long day. It ended with moving furniture. Forgive me.
View attachment 963219

Interesting furniture...

 

[Guyfang]

Pimp Arms. I missed that. Now I don't feel so bad.

 

[Toolslinger]

OK... Pumps pulled.
Broke the gen side down first. Cleaned. Everything moved very nicely. For sure a few particles around, so good that it's done.

Broke down the fan side. It was sticky. Moving, but tight. Carb cleaner did it's thing, and all is moving nicely again. It wasn't stuck hard, but it would have delayed movement.

Made sure I cleaned all the shims too (no I didn't mix them up).
Fan side pump - 3 shims ~ .031"
Gen side pump - 4 shims ~ .036.

I have to bring the digital caliper down after lunch, because the vernier is kinda stiff, and my eyes suck, so those could be a little off. I see in a doc @Guyfang posted that LP indicates that the average is 4 shims that come out at .040". Is this something I need to be concerned about?

I believe the shims will change timing if I understand the purpose, but I don't know what people are seeing in the real world as far as shims go. Since the PO was in there supposedly, it wouldn't be shocking if he lost a shim... Not trying to find more problems, just trying to stay ahead a bit...

Since I saw some debris in the pumps, I imagine I should be pulling the injectors for a cleaning too? I see a doc with the injector breakout from Stanadyne. Is there a procedure for cleaning the injectors? I don't see it called out in the TM's, but I could have missed it obviously...

 

[rickf]

I can't help with the diagnosis since I know nothing about the 800's. But I do want to compliment you on the fact you follow directions to the "T". You do not see that very often in these forums. Or people will jump around out of the order they were told to do something not thinking there was a reason for that order to be followed. Those are the people that are chasing their tails forever.

 

[Guyfang]

OK... Pumps pulled.
Broke the gen side down first. Cleaned. Everything moved very nicely. For sure a few particles around, so good that it's done.

Broke down the fan side. It was sticky. Moving, but tight. Carb cleaner did it's thing, and all is moving nicely again. It wasn't stuck hard, but it would have delayed movement.

Made sure I cleaned all the shims too (no I didn't mix them up).
Fan side pump - 3 shims ~ .031"
Gen side pump - 4 shims ~ .036.

I have to bring the digital caliper down after lunch, because the vernier is kinda stiff, and my eyes suck, so those could be a little off. I see in a doc @Guyfang posted that LP indicates that the average is 4 shims that come out at .040". Is this something I need to be concerned about?

I believe the shims will change timing if I understand the purpose, but I don't know what people are seeing in the real world as far as shims go. Since the PO was in there supposedly, it wouldn't be shocking if he lost a shim... Not trying to find more problems, just trying to stay ahead a bit...

Since I saw some debris in the pumps, I imagine I should be pulling the injectors for a cleaning too? I see a doc with the injector breakout from Stanadyne. Is there a procedure for cleaning the injectors? I don't see it called out in the TM's, but I could have missed it obviously...

The IP's and Injectors were pluck and chuck items for the military. That's why there is no parts break out for those two parts in the TM's.

 

[Ray70]

Pump shims in my opinion are not critical. if you're in the right ballfield it will run just fine.
When in doubt I've always just thrown in 2 black shims and called it a day, never had a problem.
On the injectors I'd pull them out and move the lines off to the side and just use the engine and pumps as your test rig.
Crank it over and observe the spray patterns. IIRC those have a 5 hole radial pattern. You want to check for a missing hole, a totally blocked injector and an injector that drips rather than pops off with mist only.
You can remove the nozzle and try cleaning in an ultrasonic or using a single strand of fine copper wire and a microscope.... plus carb cleaner.
If it's totally plugged or worse yet, Frozen, do yourself a favor and just replace it!
I have a home made pop tester for the 800 and 000 series injectors, but on the 800's they are not adjustable via an adjustment screw like the 000's the 800 uses shim washers under the compression spring to adjust the pressure, which is a real PITA..... SO... using the metering pumps to test them is good enough since you really can't adjust them at home anyway, just test and clean if needed / possible.

 

[Toolslinger]

I pulled down the injector service manual from Stanadyne, and read through the procedure yesterday. I came to the conclusioon that if they're not easily cleanable, assuming they need it, then they'll just be replaced. I'd spend more setting up to do it than it would cost to replace all the injectors on both machines, and the spare engine I've got.... I'm hoping that between the two in there now, and the two in the spare, I'll have 2 good injectors to get this one back to firing.

I did also come across a post that indicated the same on the pump shims you just mentioned. I'm sure every one here has played the game of searching for a seemingly minor bit of info in a specific series of generators here... There are a lot of posts that have those key words, but don't answer the question you need to. Mine will just go right back in the machine next opportunity after I verify the limits of the rail travel.

 

[Toolslinger]

Gents. I just pulled the injectors. Looking down the hole, I see steel. Shouldn't I see a copper seal down there?

 

[Ray70]

Yes, there should be a flat copper washer that seals the injector to the head.
I assume it's not stuck to the tip of the injector, covered in carbon.... looking like steel??

 

[2Pbfeet]

Yes, there should be a flat copper washer that seals the injector to the head.
I assume it's not stuck to the tip of the injector, covered in carbon.... looking like steel??

Or the block...BTDT.

All the best, 2PbFeet