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New-to-me-803A!

Guyfang

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LOOK at TB3, hard. See if anything is loose. Look to see if it appears that TB3 has been "worked on". Screws rounded off, and so forth. Signs that someone has done something there.

Before you tear the wires off, LOOK at the wire numbers on the wire diagram and make sure they are hooked up where they are supposed to be. I rarely look at wire numbers when I unhook something. That forces me to LOOK at the wire diagram. And I check everything at least twice, if not three times.

On more occasions than I care to think about, I had a problem, that was hard to find, because I "Assumed" (A dumb thing to do) that the last person who worked on that part, did it right. And because almost no one hooks an Army gen set up in single phase, in the Army, that gen set could have been knob-dicked many years ago, and no one would ever notice it.
 
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Fungal

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I assume you’re not referring to the radiator end… Is all of that behind the control cube once you remove that top panel?

I apologize if that’s a stupid question, but I’m still learning my way around this unit. I’m not sure what constitutes the front or rear of the genset.
 

ZiggyO

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Here is what I can't wrap my mind around-- Kurt, with this type of fault, how can the set even pass a 3ph test? I have sold about dozen 5kw and 10kw sets over the last 6 years-- all of them I load tested the same way-- set reconnect to 3ph 120-208, hook via 4 wire connection to the a427a load bank (also set to 3ph), bring to 50, 75, 100, and 125% loads while verifying the readings with an amprobe. If that is not a reliable method, should I test on straight 120v? I wish the a427a could be configured for 120/240 but the only options it has are 120/208 3ph and straight 120 1ph. This is now making me question how useful that load bank really is.

Z
 

kloppk

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Here is what I can't wrap my mind around-- Kurt, with this type of fault, how can the set even pass a 3ph test? I have sold about dozen 5kw and 10kw sets over the last 6 years-- all of them I load tested the same way-- set reconnect to 3ph 120-208, hook via 4 wire connection to the a427a load bank (also set to 3ph), bring to 50, 75, 100, and 125% loads while verifying the readings with an amprobe. If that is not a reliable method, should I test on straight 120v? I wish the a427a could be configured for 120/240 but the only options it has are 120/208 3ph and straight 120 1ph. This is now making me question how useful that load bank really is.

Z
Z

Good question
It's possible there is an issue with S8 that's causing it to not reconfigure the windings completely in 120/240 but reconfigures properly for 208 3 Ph.
S8's contacts can weld together and not open or not make proper contact when closing. S8's can overheat causing them to distort the switch slices.

Speculation on this next thought... It might pass a 3 Phase load test if the parallel leg winding is able to source the current to drive that leg. For example if winding 1-4 was open. Just a guess.
1770570102049.png
 

LuckeyD

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Good Day everyone. OK,, lets get to the issue. Your % rated load indicates too high and the Load as measured on L1 and L3 are about 5-7 AMPS different. War and peace here.....

Step 1: Go on this site to Tech manuals from the main page and go to technical manuals and there find Generators and the 10KW MEP-803A and down load what you need. The Military manuals are there for your military set. They say what is front and rear, and even how to remove the top covers. The cover over the control box is the right one and I use a ring wrench on the bottom with a finger over the ring to catch the nut. . I assume you have already don this.

Step 2: Now compare what you see there with what members have tried to explain and pictures. Examine the TB3 which is where the wires from the main Gen are terminated to internal wiring which passes thru the current transformers. 4 wraps please and it is a bit hard to tell. T1 turns to 001A and T7 turns into 007A and 001A and 007A are wrapped thru the transformer together 4 times.
This is L1. L2 is T2 002A, and T8 008A, and L3 is T3 and T9 turning into 003A and 009A.and Then they go to the S8 the big switch in the middle. I made a cheat sheet at the down load area for this so you can see where they attach to the S8. With it all off, I recommend switching to 3 phase and back and rock the switch a little bit as it seats into the 120-240 position ensuring it is seated. The S8 is what changes it to the desired output. You can also see if there is any corrosion on the resister board (left side of control cubical) and anywhere else in there.

Step 3: Please remember the switched S8
and S6 may have a little corrosion on their contacts and you may have to move them about a bit. The analog gages never read exactly what they are supposed to. Close is really good. Your AMP probe being digital is actually the best tool.

Step 4: I have seen this several time before. I will assume you found the wraps as they are supposed to be . If you have this load bank, I recommend connecting it, and ensuring the gen is ready to start with the top cover over the control box removed, start it, allow it to warm up, and apply a 120/240VAC load because this is what you are using, if possible. S6 should be set to read L1 and L3 as you had, and place a 50% or close to it on the gen.
A 50% load is about 26 AMPS on both phases. The load bank usually puts the same load on both phases. Now measure across the main contactor that is closed to read a voltage difference across L1 (A) and across the Contactor L3 for a voltage drop, which will tell if you have contact pitting inside the K1 main contactor. Anything over a volt or even 2 may be pitting inside the contactor on the contacts and they require burnishing.

Step 5: Ensure you have 120 on L1 and L3 to Neutral. Ensure you have it running at 60 HZ. Now take a small screwdriver and using the black calibration screw on the glass face ensure the Volt gage is reading close what you read with your digital devices. Try the same with the percentage load gage. Slowly and carefully. See if this assists you with your issue. Have a great day and yell if it assists or if I have brown eyes or not. Cool?
 

WWRD99

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Glad to see you got it all hooked up and running. Tough to see the output isn't right. I hope it is just an easy dirty contact you can clean. I can't help much on this since the people responding are the best ones for it. I like to think of diagnostics as digging with a spoon vs a 12 yard excavator. Some people dive so far they skip the simple stuff. Get that tm printed out and get a figure of how it works. You'll learn more about it that can be helpful in the future too.
 

Fungal

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Yeah, I have two printed manuals inbound already.

*** edit ***

Just as an aside, how long does a generator need to run before you start having wet-stacking problems? If I need to run this generator for a few hours, maybe only making 7-8kW, but I may need to charge some batteries, am I going to run into problems with that?

Just asking in case running down the output problem turns into a protracted thing.
 
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Fungal

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Got the top off... a little dusty in there, but I was able to clean it up. Here's the TB3 terminal block... all the wires seem to be correct, and the number of turns through CT3 were appropriate for a 10kW generator:

opentop_generator.jpg

TB3.jpg


I put a 5kW load on the generator, using my Tesla as an adjustable load-bank. The Tesla charger allows fine-grained control over how much amperage you pull, so I can dial up the charging power an amp at a time in the app.

Oddly, the Ammeter is no longer reading the load correctly... estimating way low, and there is still a several-amp difference between the L1 and L3 legs. Voltage is within a half-a-volt. It hit overload at about 8kW.

Teslaload.jpg

optics_5kwload.jpg

L1_voltage5kwload.jpg

L3_voltage5kw.jpg

ammeter_5kwload.jpg


The now-inaccurate ammeter on the control panel is a new finding. Can't explain that one. As suggested, I did operate the S8 and S5 switches multiple times, and wiggle them in their final configuration to ensure decent contact.
 

Light in the Dark

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I think you need to blow through about 2 cans of deoxit on all the switches (especially S8 and rotate the knobs back and forth till you go mad. Then once more for good measure. I think if nothing else has changed physically, you've got corrosion and possibly detritus in the switch.
 
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Guyfang

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Fungal,

On the left side of the control cube, you have some wires touching the cube side. I can not remember how often I fixed worn through wires there. I take a plastic wire tie and gather up the wires loosely. Then when I cut off the end of the wire tie, I leave the end about 1-2 inches long, and turn it so the 1-2 inch stub is touching the cube side. That way the wires are held at bay, so to speak.
 
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LuckeyD

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OK, TB 3 looks good, and things match up but unable to see several T windings labels but this is normal. You have at the load terminals with a load of "Not shown" with the digital AMP Probe, a little over a volt difference between L1 and L3 to Neutral. I'm going to ask to check something seemingly strange, and that is place the black lead on the Neutral and now use the red probe and measure AC voltage at the main Contactor at L1 and L3 input to the contactor from the S8 while running. The measurements should be the same as you previously had at the load terminals if everything is perfect which on an older gen it is not. Close is good, like within 1 Volt AC.

Once you have those readings now reading for AC Voltage, red lead on the input to K1 Main Contactor, black lead on the same phase at the output of the K1 for both L1 and L3. This will be a voltage drop across the contactor mating points inside. The AC Voltage should be about a volt or less. The higher this reading the more pitted the inside contact points are. The output of the K1 should be exactly as you read at the load terminals. Any difference indicates the filter circuits behind the load terminals are having issues. One wire on the TB3 is rubbing against the frame but this droops down like that after time. Just bend it up Slightly

Do me a favor, with the gen running, at load, set your DMM on HZ, measure L3 to neutral and adjust your speeder KNOB for 60.3 to 60.5 HZ using the DMM readings and then lock it back down. If different than the Freq gage, slightly calibrate the analog meter so they are very close and then you are more familiar with that gage. The gages are analog and measure more accurate around mid scale.
These gages are not very accurate on the best sets but you can get them close. Adjust your voltage adjust on the control panel so your DMM reads 120 at the load terminals and calibrate the AC Volt meter very slowly so it is closer to 240. Your 123VAC is actually good and a 125VAC puts less strain on the Voltage regulator, but no higher. With your load measure with your AMP Probe as you had shown in the initial entry. 25AMPs is about 50% of the 100% output of the gen of 52 AMPs per phase set on 120/240 at the S8. Your meter indicated 25% load but again it is on the left side of the gage too.

If you have an air compressor, put on a pair of safety glasses and blow out the dust. Just imagine this 4 inches thick as was the usual in Iraq, and a little less in Afghanistan. In Germany, things grew green hair on things and had rust. Ft Bragg seemed normal. Ft Lewis had sea rust and forget Hawaii. Your % load if everything else check out probably needs a tweak on the calibration button on the gage face, but here if you adjust it at 50% to be accurate with the AMP probe, it will be off at 100% as I never saw one reading correctly. Someplace between the 2 settings where you usually run the gen set is the best adjustment calibration setting.

If you down load the manuals from this site you will have the best we are allowed to provide for free, and I added things not in the manual I used with 57 other P&E LARs and Master Tech for 20 year Please remember, the gen is not a new item and has been abused by everyone since it was made. Like me at 70, I still get around , but not like 50 years ago or when I brought TQG gens into the ARMY in early 90s as a Warrant Officer and still in touch with the school house writing their courses.
 
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2Pbfeet

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I think you need to blow through about 2 cans of deoxit on all the switches (especially S8 and rotate the knobs back and forth till you go mad. Then once more for good measure. I think if nothing else has changed physically, you've got corrosion and possibly detritus in the switch.
+1 on some DeOxIt, and I first would be tempted to go through there with a soft paint brush to loosen the dust, and then either vacuum it up, or use some compressed air before wading in with the DeOxIt. I'd hate to wash dust in with the DeOxIt.

All the best,

2PbFeet
 

BeStihl

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It appears to me as if K8 3-4 voltage reading at around 3.xxV is correct for an 8kW load of 32A.

So the K8 2-4 & 1-4 voltage readings of 7.xxV both are high enough to trigger a false overload. The higher the resistance of the CT & Burden resistor circuit the higher that voltage is gonna be seen at K8 terminals. Just thinking out loud.

You would think that it is a problem with dirty switch contacts causing high resistance in CT/Burden circuit, IF the windings are good & everything is wired correctly.

Hope you get it sorted, these guys have a lot of experience and are eager to help out.
 

Fungal

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+1 on some DeOxIt, and I first would be tempted to go through there with a soft paint brush to loosen the dust, and then either vacuum it up, or use some compressed air before wading in with the DeOxIt. I'd hate to wash dust in with the DeOxIt.

All the best,

2PbFeet
Can I use CRC QD Contact Cleaner? I can get that at Lowes... the Deoxit I'd have to order.
 
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