• Steel Soldiers now has a few new forums, read more about it at: New Munitions Forums!

  • Microsoft MSN, Live, Hotmail, Outlook email users may not be receiving emails. We are working to resolve this issue. Please add support@steelsoldiers.com to your trusted contacts.

Rebuilding the Injection pump

rustystud

Well-known member
9,430
3,487
113
Location
Woodinville, Washington
View attachment Scan0186.pdfView attachment Scan0188.pdfView attachment Scan0187.pdf

This is some more information about the different settings of the LDT and LDS pumps. Picture one shows how to adjust the main fuel on the "Fuel Density Compensator" . Picture two shows how much the LDT pump should put out at 2600 RPM's (37.5 to 38.5 cc/500 strokes) . Picture three shows how much the LDS pump should put out at 2600 RPM's (45.5 to 46.5 cc/500 strokes) . If my math is correct that is a 18% output increase for the LDS over the LDT pump.
 

rustystud

Well-known member
9,430
3,487
113
Location
Woodinville, Washington
This is a very interesting point. How does that work?
It basically helps keeps the governor from surging conditions, but in all honesty just using your foot to adjust the fuel if your slowing down is better in my opinion. That is why I believe the TM manuals don't go into such great detail about the droop screw. Now in generator applications that is very important as heavy loads coming on and off can cause severe power surges which can harm electronics.
 
Last edited:

stb64

Member
164
17
18
Location
hohenfels germany
It pushes back against the governor
I'm confused now. I thought the droop screw was part of the governor, and either it contacts the stop plate, and limits fuel flow, or, when it does not touch the stop plate, it does nothing.
What am I missing here?
 

rustystud

Well-known member
9,430
3,487
113
Location
Woodinville, Washington
I'm confused now. I thought the droop screw was part of the governor, and either it contacts the stop plate, and limits fuel flow, or, when it does not touch the stop plate, it does nothing.
What am I missing here?
What you need to do is look at the TM and you will see how the governor works. I can try and explain with words tell the cows come home and you will still not understand until you "see" it. TM 9-2910-226-35 is a good TM to use.
 

stb64

Member
164
17
18
Location
hohenfels germany
[What you need to do is look at the TM and you will see how the governor works. I can try and explain with words tell the cows come home and you will still not understand until you "see" it. TM 9-2910-226-35 is a good TM to use./QUOTE]

I've got a copy of TM9-2910-226-34, 1976 paper version.
When looking at the sectional view, it appears the droop screw only comes into play when it touches the stop plate.
By resting against the stop plate, the droop screw keeps the fulcrum lever from moving towards the ''increase fuel'' position.
How does this help add fuel? It seems to me, that it does exactly the opposite. What am I missing?
 

rustystud

Well-known member
9,430
3,487
113
Location
Woodinville, Washington
The droop screw keeps the governor from surging wildly by coming into contact with the "stop plate" before the "cam" . I think I know what the problem is here. Your not taking into account that the stop plate moves during operation. It is not stationary, but slides up and down according to fuel pressure. At 60 psi it is in its full open position and you can adjust the "guide adjusting screw" to increase max fuel as long as you keep an eye out on the Pyrometer.
As far as the TM goes, get the TM 9-2910-226-35 . It is a better manual.
 

rustystud

Well-known member
9,430
3,487
113
Location
Woodinville, Washington
View attachment Scan0189.pdf This might help you better understand the function of the "droop" screw. When the droop screw comes into contact with the stop plate first, it prevents excessive fuel delivery during acceleration and at medium speed under load allows the turbocharger time to spool-up preventing excessive smoke.
 

Floridianson

Well-known member
Steel Soldiers Supporter
7,426
2,560
113
Location
Interlachen Fl.
Greg thought the FDC stop plate only moved when the viscosity of the fuel changed. The orifice on the FDC is calibrated on the injection machine to only the emergency fuels listed. When the fuel changes then the FDC changes giving us the same throttle input for all the different fuels but same output. Think you said you bypassed your FDC but by removing the adjustment allen head it changed the orifice setting and the FDC might not read the emergency fuels correct butt its not a problem because we bypass. I think the FDC was a waist and as most of us know it must be bypassed to prevent engine oil contamination.
 
Last edited:

stb64

Member
164
17
18
Location
hohenfels germany
Now I' even more confused:

The droop screw, which can only rest against the stop plate, and keep the fulcrum lever from moving further towards the ''increase fuel'' position, does two things that are exactly the opposite?:
helps add fuel
prevents excessive fuel delivery

I think I know what the problem is here. Your not taking into account that the stop plate moves during operation
Greg thought the FDC stop plate only moved when the viscosity of the fuel changed.
(Floridianson)
Makes sense:

The pressure inside the FDC only changes when a different fuel is used.
The pressure inside the FDC is the same regardless of engine speed, and does not change during engine operation.

How can the stop plate move during operation? And how would movement of the stop plate cause surging?

This might help you better understand the function of the "droop" screw.
This already is my understanding of the droop screw's, and governor's, function. It is, basically, what i learned back when I was an apprentice at M.A.N.

As far as the TM goes, get the TM 9-2910-226-35 . It is a better manual.
Thanks. I'll see if I can access the manual at work.
 

Floridianson

Well-known member
Steel Soldiers Supporter
7,426
2,560
113
Location
Interlachen Fl.
Greg is correct in saying when at 1200rpm and correct pressure is established the FDC starts to compensate and moves to it correct position for the fuel being used. So it does move from when we start till 1200rpm then settles to the correct position. I have not tested the fuel pressure at 1200rpm so if Rusty says it's 60 psi then that is the pressure where the FDC is doing it's compensation for that fuel. I don't mess with FDC calibration as I will bypass them as soon as I get the truck.
 
Last edited:

rustystud

Well-known member
9,430
3,487
113
Location
Woodinville, Washington
Greg is correct in saying when at 1200rpm and correct pressure is established the FDC starts to compensate and moves to it correct position for the fuel being used. So it does move from when we start till 1200rpm then settles to the correct position. I have not tested the fuel pressure at 1200rpm so if Rusty says it's 60 psi then that is the pressure where the FDC is doing it's compensation for that fuel. I don't mess with FDC calibration as I will bypass them as soon as I get the truck.

I haven't bypassed mine yet. I probably will sometime in the future.
 
Last edited:

rustystud

Well-known member
9,430
3,487
113
Location
Woodinville, Washington
Now I' even more confused:

The droop screw, which can only rest against the stop plate, and keep the fulcrum lever from moving further towards the ''increase fuel'' position, does two things that are exactly the opposite?:






(Floridianson)
Makes sense:

The pressure inside the FDC only changes when a different fuel is used.
The pressure inside the FDC is the same regardless of engine speed, and does not change during engine operation.

How can the stop plate move during operation? And how would movement of the stop plate cause surging?


This already is my understanding of the droop screw's, and governor's, function. It is, basically, what i learned back when I was an apprentice at M.A.N.


Thanks. I'll see if I can access the manual at work.
The stop plate is continually being adjusted in small increments according to fuel pressure at that time. Since fuel pressure is adjusted according to engine RPM then that means the FDC is constantly adjusting and the amount of adjustment is dependent on the calibration of the FDC for which fuel type it is using.
 
Last edited:

stb64

Member
164
17
18
Location
hohenfels germany
Honestly I don't know why you are so concerned with the droop screw anyway.
Rustystud, I am not ''concerned'' with the droopscrew, I simply asked for clarification.
You made two statements:
That the droopscrew :
1. helps add fuel and 2. prevents excessive fuel delivery
I fully agree with number 2, but do not understand how the droop screw could ever ''help add fuel''.
It is clear that these are two things that are exactly the opposite.That's what my question, still unanswered BTW, was all about.
I am a certified diesel mechanic, so there is no need to explain to me how the governor functions, I learned that decades ago.
I am very familiar with bosch injection pumps, so you will not have to explain the principles of operation.
You can go directly to the droop screw and tell me how it causes what part of the governor to move in which direction in order to add fuel.
Now since you were an apprentice at M.A.N. then you should realize that since the stop plate is a "curved" and not straight piece of metal that at times the droop screw will come into contact before the "cam" will. That was explained in the PDF of the last post I gave you.
I know exactly when and under what conditions the droop screw comes into contact with the stop plate, and when the smoke limit cam does, but neither do I see how having been an apprentice at m.a.n. should make me realize the stop plate is curved, nor how it should be related to the FDC, and I could not find such explanation in the pdf either.
What I did see (and expected) is that the stop plate in the picture has two separate contact surfaces for the smoke cam and droop screw, having slightly different angles.
What I also see is that the pump in the picture is not a multifuel pump, and does not have a FDC. The governor operates on the same principle, however.
The code G pump's (LDS427-2) stop plate is perfectly straight. Smoke limit cam and droop screw are close together, and share the same contact surface.

The stop plates in the other multifuel injector pumps do also have two separate contact surfaces at slightly different angles.
If at all, the stop plate is rounded only where the 2 contact surfaces meet.

If you have bypassed the FDC like most people then it really has no more function for you
According to You, a droop screw ''has no more function'' with the FDC bypassed, as there are no more pressure changes, and the stop plate no longer moves, no longer causing surging.

My explanation, back in post#109, of how the FDC works :
''The pressure inside the FDC only changes when a different fuel is used.
The pressure inside the FDC is the same regardless of engine speed, and does not change during engine operation.''

Differs from yours:
''I think I know what the problem is here. Your not taking into account that the stop plate moves during operation. It is not stationary, but slides up and down according to fuel pressure.''''The stop plate is continually being adjusted according to fuel pressure at that time. Since fuel pressure is adjusted according to engine RPM then that means the FDC is constantly adjusting''

Well, got the tm out, and found this:
''The fuel supply is admitted to a pressure regulating valve where the supply pressure is reduced to a constant regulated pressure over the engine operating speed and load range''

This means the stop plate does not move during engine operation, and even if it did, it would only change maximum load fuel by an negligible amount, between the full load gasoline position, and the full load diesel position.

So your explanations did not answer my question yet.
Oh, and don't get me wrong.
Please keep in mind that my questions are of purely technical nature.
I truly appreciate Your threads. Lots of useful step by step information and heads up even for more experienced mechanics.
 

rustystud

Well-known member
9,430
3,487
113
Location
Woodinville, Washington
Well, got the tm out, and found this:
''The fuel supply is admitted to a pressure regulating valve where the supply pressure is reduced to a constant regulated pressure over the engine operating speed and load range''

This means the stop plate does not move during engine operation, and even if it did, it would only change maximum load fuel by an negligible amount, between the full load gasoline position, and the full load diesel position.

So your explanations did not answer my question yet.
Oh, and don't get me wrong.
Please keep in mind that my questions are of purely technical nature.


View attachment Scan0190.pdfView attachment Scan0191.pdfView attachment Scan0192.pdfView attachment Scan0193.pdf

First off the fuel pressure is not set at one regulated pressure. If you have a pressure gauge on your filters you can see that for your self. The TM says the pressure range is 30 to 60 psi. That is not a set pressure."
Second, the droop screw helps keep the engine from surging by keeping the "fulcrum" from moving back against the governor pressure, thus keeping the fuel pressure higher through the control rod. In the TM there is a full explanation of this. As far as the stop plate not moving, read these pages I posted here. It does not move much but it does move. Now just stop and think for a moment. The compensator has a piston that has a spring on top. According to you this piston will not move no matter the pressure against it. That is just wrong. The amount of movement is limited due to the two other pressures acting against it, but it still will move according to the main fuel pressure.
You say your only asking all these questions for purely technical reasons. At this point I think your just wanting to argue and I don't want to. You can read the TM yourself and come to your own conclusion. This thread was about rebuilding the injection pump, not a dissertation of the functioning of the injection pump and it's governing system. If that's what you want then start another thread. As it is I have spent way to much of my time going over all my injection pump manuals trying to find a good answer for you. There are several more pages I could up-load but I'm tired of this now. Oh, my comment about you being an apprentice was I assumed you could see in the manual that the stop plate was curved and could figure out for yourself what it meant. Nothing more.
 

rustystud

Well-known member
9,430
3,487
113
Location
Woodinville, Washington
View attachment Scan0194.pdfView attachment Scan0195.pdfView attachment Scan0196.pdfView attachment Scan0197.pdf

I think we all got side tracked with the whole FDC thing so I will try one more time to explain. Now before you say that is not the same pump, take a look at it's function. It is the same principal and almost the exact same design as our pumps.
First off forget the FDC and just think of the stop plate as fixed. You can see that the droop screw helps keep the governor "in check" during acceleration and deceleration, and still allows the Turbo time to spool-up preventing smoke.
In the first page you see that the droop screw does add fuel. The next three pages shows how the droop screw actually decrease's fuel. In many ways the droop screw is "By-Polar" . First acting one way then acting another depending on the situation. Also look closely at the fulcrum lever. It does not move linearly but actually moves in an elliptical fashion. Also the operating lever is not physically connected to the fulcrum but is connected by a spring which allows for a unique movement to the fulcrum lever. Then there is the "spyder" connection to the governor itself from the cam shaft. It allows the governor to lag behind the actual speed of the engine. All these factors add up to the total function of the governing system allowing the droop screw to have many functions.
Now when you add in the FDC you get a totally different function for the droop screw since the stop plate does move.
So now I'm done with this explanation and if you want more answers then study the TM's for yourself. Who knows, I might be full of Sh!t and then you can prove me wrong. Just be sure to actually use real information like pages from the manuals and not just useless words with nothing to back them up with.
 

rustystud

Well-known member
9,430
3,487
113
Location
Woodinville, Washington
So with the FDC bypassed the droop screw would need to be turned clockwise to reduce surging?
Depends. Is the engine surging now ? If it is then you would need to either increase fuel or decrease fuel. So since we don't know you would have to try clockwise 1/4 turn and if that didn't help then turn it back 1/2 turn. Either way it is trial and error adjusting.
 
Top